Sunday's Cellar hunt*3 copper day, Silver Knee Buckle, Dagger Hilt*

[Thiltzy]

While driving to some new sites at 6:00am Sunday, I said to Dave that I had a good feeling. The ticks were out in full force and I am still soar from all the hiking but it was worth it.
The scenery was gorgeous and so were the finds. Scored my second solid Knee buckle but this one seems older with an Iron tongue and chape that crumpled off when I cleaned it. Also found my 2nd ever dagger or rapier "Hilt":loveit: The 3 copper day included an interesting counterfeit Connecticut and a clipped planchet Connecticut. The 1831 has great detail and the detecting Gods even tossed in an Indian and wheat penny. Some tombacs and other relics just added to the fun.

[Tony Two-Cent]

Beautiful scenery, finds and photos, Todd! :loveit:

The counterfeit Connecticut and the Large Cent both cleaned up really well. I love the color of the Large Cent.

The dagger hilt is very cool too. You earned your nickname "Hiltzy" on that one! ;)

But the find of the day must be that solid silver knee buckle! Too bad about the tongue and chape but let's face it, the buckle displays better without them. What a wonderful relic!

Congrats on the fantastic day! :clapping:

:perfect10:

[del]

:shocked03: wow that Connecticut looks pretty similar to Jeff"s Counterfeit he found last year , also a sand cast example i wonder if they are the same variety .


the silver knee buckle is a beautiful piece Todd :loveit: getting two in one year is quite a feat. you had a super hunt .:perfect10:

[Isaac]

Todd... just an unreal hunt there...:shocked05: another SILVER knee buckle to the collection and then that dagger hilt.... I'll be right back, gonna mop some of this drool off my keyboard :rofl: . Big congrats on these gorgeous personal items Todd.:smitten: Do you think this is a virgin site you're exploring? This is definitely your year, keep that streak alive! HH

[aloldstuff]

Great hunting Todd. Love the coins, even the clipped planchet adds to the eye appeal. Another silver knee buckle....huge :congrats:.


The "hilt" is something that does not appear that often. A little concerned, I don't see a picture of the wheat.....:lol:

[Bell-Two]

Simply lovely finds Todd, the sword/dagger hilt is awesome and the knee buckle....wowser! The counterfeit copper turned out nice. Do they ring up different than a genuine one? What composition are they as opposed to originals? Thanks for sharing just wonderful!

[Lodge Scent]

Wow indeed! Some very cool finds Todd. Eagle eye Dan is right. There is a strong similarity between the two counterfeit CTs.

[Trooper Bri]

Congrats on the 2'nd silver buckle and hilt Todd! Well worth the worn shoes.

[Thiltzy]

Tony Two-Cent
Beautiful scenery, finds and photos, Todd! :loveit:

The counterfeit Connecticut and the Large Cent both cleaned up really well. I love the color of the Large Cent.

The dagger hilt is very cool too. You earned your nickname "Hiltzy" on that one! ;)

But the find of the day must be that solid silver knee buckle! Too bad about the tongue and chape but let's face it, the buckle displays better without them. What a wonderful relic!

Congrats on the fantastic day! :clapping:
Your right Tony, the knee buckle frame looks better with out the crumpled iron guts. Thanks

del
:shocked03: wow that Connecticut looks pretty similar to Jeff"s Counterfeit he found last year , also a sand cast example i wonder if they are the same variety .


the silver knee buckle is a beautiful piece Todd :loveit: getting two in one year is quite a feat. you had a super hunt
They do look like same variety Dan...good eye. I'm getting lucky with the solid silver buckles:happydance01:

Isaac
Todd... just an unreal hunt there...:shocked05: another SILVER knee buckle to the collection and then that dagger hilt.... I'll be right back, gonna mop some of this drool off my keyboard :rofl: . Big congrats on these gorgeous personal items Todd.:smitten: Do you think this is a virgin site you're exploring? This is definitely your year, keep that streak alive! HH
Thanks Isaac, persistence is key. The site is not Virgin, we ended up at 3 different sites Sunday

aloldstuff
Great hunting Todd. Love the coins, even the clipped planchet adds to the eye appeal. Another silver knee buckle....huge :congrats:.


The "hilt" is something that does not appear that often. A little concerned, I don't see a picture of the wheat.....:lol:
Thanks AL, I agree with you on the clipped planchet and the wheat was 1944 :lol:

Bell-Two
Simply lovely finds Todd, the sword/dagger hilt is awesome and the knee buckle....wowser! The counterfeit copper turned out nice. Do they ring up different than a genuine one? What composition are they as opposed to originals? Thanks for sharing just wonderful!
Yes Tony, the counterfeits ring up much lower on the VDI scale. A normal CT copper rings up in the high 70's while counterfeits ring up usually in the 30-50 range. This one rand at 37 VDI

[kpmoose]

Nice dagger hilt and silver buckle. So cool. :perfect10:

[Thiltzy]

Nice dagger hilt and silver buckle. So cool. :perfect10: Thanks Kevin, after some help with a friend researching the Hilt I think it may be a sword or rapier hilt http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ab/57/98/ab5798b205dcd8e762e23276d2dcab97.jpg

[HEAVYMETALNUT]

another sweeet hunt you had.these sites have all been pretty amazing in this area.i think i may have found a couple more interesting areas

[giant056]

Awesome bunch of finds you got there Todd :thumbsup02: Don't ya wish that when they made those shoe buckles that the entire buckle was made from silver!! Tony is right though the buckle looks much better without the corroded away guts :)

[OxShoeDrew]

A truly wonderful hunt Todd! I wanted to inquire about the wheat but Al beat me to it :lol:
You had a penny grand slam! I'll have to visit this thread again to take it all in :lol:

[del]

I'm hoping Jeyes or Don will comment on the counterfeits , as i'm really hoping they are the copies of the same variety.

[The Rebel]

WTG Todd! Definitely looks like a rapier to me based on the rings at the top of the guard.

[don in ny]

Not sure why you think it's counterfeit. It looks like one of the large letter varieties of 1787. Also like the clipped piece. I saw one once that had 4 clips on it. Silver knee buckles are RARE! Nice find!

[Jyes]

As Don M has stated, it is a large letter variety of 1787, after looking thru the books and a couple C4 auction catalogs, I am fairly certain the Obverse of both CT coppers, yours and Jeff's are Obverse 26, with no photo of Jeff's reverse, cannot say which reverse, either a.1 or AA, or kk.1.

CT coppers are hard to attribute at times, especially ground founds, but if Dan or Don M look maybe they can agree or disagree on what I think Todd's CT is. 1787 Miller 26-kk.1 Very hard to say with 100% certainty due to the wear/corrosion. I did not rule out a.1 or AA but I think I see a mismatch with both of those reverses.
http://www.coinfacts.com/colonial_coins/connecticut_coppers/1787_ct_coppers/1787_ct_copper_miller_26_kk.01.htm Minted at "The Company for Coining Coppers" (November 12, 1785 - June 1, 1787) New Haven CT

No matter what, if it is a M.26, it is at least a Rare variety :)

I do not think they are counterfeits, but did you weigh them by any chance?

Don H

[Tony Two-Cent]

I'm watching this thread with great interest. I know next to nothing about state coppers but I'm trying to absorb everything I can on the subject. From what I understand, Todd only thought his copper was counterfeit due to how it rang up on his machine. It is curious that a genuine coin would ring up so low. Perhaps it is a genuine CT copper struck on an inferior planchet?

I will eat my popcorn and let the experts weigh in. :popcorn: :thumbsup01:

[del]

Don and Jyes , Jeff's coin i was present when he found that coin it reads very low (like a bottle cap instead of copper coin) on the machines compared to a a usual Connecticut copper suggesting its not made with copper or a mixed metal composition. Todd has said in his post that his coin also does not read in the usual copper vdi's area of his machine , both coins look very grainy almost like they were made in a sand cast mould . I am mearly questioning that the same variety of Connecticut26 was used to make the cast for both counterfeits or were Connecticut coppers made with mixed or debased metals at the mint??


Todd could you weight this coin in atleast grams or grains , Jeff same question and also post a nice reverse picture.

[Jyes]

Tony, a couple years ago I did the diameters/weights and Ferrous and Non Ferrous readings on most of my colonial finds and some early American coins and here is what I got from the Conn coppers I did. As far as results, well, the VT and NJ coppers all were pretty close to each other on readouts on the Explorer SE Pro, but the Conn coppers were rather varied. I know it is said they used at times copper that may have not been as pure as it could have been, not sure if that is rumor or truth, but seems I remember reading that somewhere, so I guess seeing that they do vary on the readings on my detector, that might be the reason. Corrosion is not a big factor in the readouts, that is one result I concluded from the study.....

YEAR
WEIGHT
DIAMETER
FERROUS
CONDUCTIVE
REMARKS


1785
119.4
28.5
2
29
M.6.4-l


1786
94.2
28.2
5
28
M.14.2-S


1788
125.1
27.3
4
28
M.7-E


1787
110.5
28.4
2
29
M.33.1-Z.13


1787
124.5
28.5
1
29
M.33.2-Z.5


1787
113.0
28.5
2
29
M.33.8-Z.13


1787
126.1
28.1
0
29
M.33.17-r.1


1787-88
85.5
26.4
5
28
?


1788
129.8
27.3
7
26
M.12.1-E


1786
151.0
27.8
3
28
M.5.8-F


1787
121.7
27.8
3
28
M.8-O


1787
133.5
28.4
0
29
M.39.1-h.1 small hole


1787
118.1
28.4
3
28
M.30-hh.1


1788
112.0
28.2
6
27
M.16.3-N

[Jyes]

Cast Counterfeits: I have always had a problem telling a cast by looks, Dr Mossman, who I have dealt with quite a bit on the subject has shot me down several times on coins I thought were cast, so I am leary of saying by looks. He usually says look for file marks, look for port marks and what is the Specific Gravity. Well SG is a pain to do in my opinion, so I usually am only 100% certain when I see file marks or evidence of ports on the edge. I did the readouts with the Explorer in hopes that it would help in determining whether a coin is counterfeit or not but results ended up being inconclusive for the most part. Yes, always look for rough surfaces, mushy letters, etc. Unfortunately, even weight is not always a help in determining, especially with CT coppers since they vary a lot, but comparing weights once you know the variety with others of the same, can help in determining. I guess the only solid answer is Specific Gravity test with a known good one for a certain variety with the one you are checking....... Don H

[del]

Don , To me these two coins look much cruder because of the bumpy , grainy or porous background and the strong pronounced letters , yet they are very worn looking. yes my Connecticut's do vary slightly in readings on my machine , maybe 5 to 10 vdi's (i've tested all under the same conditions) and because of weight and diameter variations I can understand that. I , like Jeff and Todd have a couple that read more then 30 vdi numbers lower (more like a shotgun shell then a copper) which can only be because of a mixture of metal composition or not even copper at all.

heres the link to Jeff copper when he found it it also shows the very crude reverse .
http://www.americandetectorist.com/forum/showthread.php?14244-Black-Friday-Hunt-with-Drew-and-Dan

[Jyes]

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/today-s-finds/292248-dig-all-those-signals-counterfeit-maybe-connecticut-copper.html After rereading Bramblefinds post on TNet, and seeing her photos (looks like file marks on edge?) John Lorenzo did an XRF analysis on her suspected cast CT and came back as mostly a bronze mixture. I do not agree with John's statement on surface contaminants, since every coin I have tried dirty/corroded/cleaned did not seem to be affected by corrosion. Also, that would mean 15% is missing from his analysis if the iron is surface contaminant? Jeff's copper, with the reverse photo now being seen sure looks like a lousy done cast job, unless something else happened if die struck, or fire. But have to lean for sure with his but not for sure with Todd's, but that does increase the chances of it being cast. The Whitman Baltimore show going on right now and most of the "experts" are there right now, but maybe Dr Mossman is not, so I might send him the photos for his opinion.

[del]

That was a good read Don and this has been a great informative thread . I find it was very interesting as to the many different types of metal that was actually in Bramblefinds coin. The miller 37.6-B. Connecticut i found last year is also another one of these very low reading coins but doesn't have the porous crude "sand cast" look these coins display but does look like a bronze coin , i would be very interested in getting it tested like Bramblefinds did.

if Jeff's and Todd's coins are both counterfeit and from the same exact variety , would it increase the odds there might have been an unknown mass counterfeiter out there somewhere ?

Dan

[Jyes]

When the Baltimore /C4 convention is over this weekend, I will try and find out who is the go to guy for this subject. In the meantime, just in case Dr Mossman did not attend and is at home in Va, I will see what he has to say.

I did compare to see if perhaps the two came from the same coin and not sure, look at the cud or rim damage and compare, perhaps the same but than again, different area, could just be result of casting. I will also look to see if any articles were written on the subject either in C4NL or CNL, but only have the early years of CNL articles. It is interesting subject, and like I said before, IF you can do a good Specific Gravity test (I tried and did not get steady accurate results) That would be a good substitute for an XRF analysis, since thru the SG you can at least eliminate a good copper coin from an inferior one by the results.
Oh, the other thing, diameter is always a tad smaller on cast coins, trouble is you need a legit one of the same variety, perhaps even two to compare with......
Don H

[Thiltzy]

Weight in grams and size in MM

[del]

7.9 grams comes to about 121.92 grains which is probably well within the weights of Connecticut coppers , thanks Todd.

so with that in mind if it was pure copper it would definitely vdi much higher in the copper coin area , so its looking like another debased metal composition coin and not an under weight coin.

[Thiltzy]

Rang up at 37 VDI on both mine and Daves Machine's

[HEAVYMETALNUT]

Rang up at 37 VDI on both mine and Daves Machine's
yep very low 37-40 consistantly.not going above 40

[Jayson's Treasure Hunting]

Nice hunting spot and great finds.

[Lodge Scent]

Here's a pic of the edge of my suspected counterfeit CT. It's tough to get a good photo with a smart phone but you can definitely see what appears to be file marks. They are found around most of the edge and generally all flow in the same direction. This coin weighs in at 8.5 grams.

Jeff

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j364/jeffhdfx2/edge1_zpsa719f9fc.jpg (http://s1082.photobucket.com/user/jeffhdfx2/media/edge1_zpsa719f9fc.jpg.html)

[del]

Jeff , just above the halfway point of that rim are some small sightly angled left to right marks that look like they could be file marks . thanks for showing them .