Brooch Date

[OxShoeDrew]

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to the age of this Indian Fur Trader brooch? http://www.americandetectorist.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=44793&d=1417477291

[Lodge Scent]

341 years old

[Tony Two-Cent]

341 years old

Can you be more precise? Sure, 341 years, but how many months and days? :lol:

[OxShoeDrew]

:lol: Monday, June 3rd, 1709...we're still working on the exact time, we think after lunch.

A few people told me they think it's a medieval annular brooch. One guy said he found one in MA which he calls medieval. People were surprised mine was found in the states. BUT I do not believe this. At this point I still believe Jeff nailed it. I'm guessing this comes from near the beginnings of the fur trade in North America, maybe late 1600s to early 1700s. I think this because it was found in NE CT and I thought all the beavers were hunted out and the trade moved west past those dates...but I'm just guessing. I was hoping someone could date it through the style like shoe buckles.

[Tony Two-Cent]

All I can say is that it looks very much like the medieval brooches that people find in the UK and Germany.

[Lodge Scent]

All I can say is that it looks very much like the medieval brooches that people find in the UK and Germany.

I agree with that Tony, it does look medieval. The NA fur trade brooches I've seen are typically plain but the owner of that brooch could have spiced that one up himself. Really is a cool find and fun to ponder its origin.

[Digger_O'Dell]

Here's my 2 cents worth. I did some searching online and found countless medieval ring brooches and cloak pins that look nearly identical, although with a variation in decorations. Its also known that the Vikings had been to Connecticut. Specifically the Mystic Ct. region as found on one Viking map. So my guess is it could be from that time period as it fits the design style period and known visitation by European travelers.
One other way to verify it would be to analyze the metal it's made of. I suspect it may have a lot of silver content since it didn't oxidize like an iron piece would have, although not nearly as high as coin silver which also lends me to think viking.

[Lodge Scent]

After reading Digger's response, I will say it is clearly a modern reproduction Drew and you don't want it anymore. It's just wasting good space in your finds dispaly case. But I'll give you $5 bucks for it just to take it off you hands. ;)

[OxShoeDrew]

That would be sooo cool! Thanks, Chris! You know, as a kid I remember listening to Moondog The Viking on 6th ave. He was a blind musician who played on the street everyday dressed as a Viking. He was before the naked cowboy and more psychedelic. I always assumed the piece was silver, I have some colonial cuffs that have the same dark silver look to them.
:lol: Jeff... we may never know its origins, it would be tough to pin it down.

[Full Metal Digger]

This is going to blow your mind, but ALL my reference books put that brooch 13th and 14th century! I've found several but NONE as nice as yours! I'll post some pics later so you can see what I'm looking at. Congratulations on an extremely rare find!

[Full Metal Digger]

Drew, here are some reference pics on your brooch. After thinking about it for a bit, I think you have made a significant archeological find. It's possible this brooch is evidence of European contact with native Americans that is much earlier than previously thought. It is not hard to imagine this item being passed down several generations within the tribe until the fur trader days when it was lost. I recently read about a guy up in Newfoundland who found a 1420's English gold coin at an early site. Have you considered showing it to the museum to get their take on it?

[OxShoeDrew]

OMG!!!! I don't know what to think :lol: Thanks so much for the info, Dave!! I guess I have to show a museum! What I was doing was writing a piece for our historical society about the fur trade in our area and was going to showcase that find...but it seems I have more research to do.

[Digger_O'Dell]

That's some amazing info! Looking at the photo it's difficult at best to judge what material it's made of. Even looking at the photos in the book many different materials look very similar. Silver? Pewter? Bronze? I would certainly get your museum involved. Make sure you have documentation (or notation) of the exact site and depth you found it.

Also, I would get back there ASAP and see if there's any more to be found. Who knows if there isn't a Saxon hoard there! :shocked03: Yeah, that would really blow the historians away!

[Full Metal Digger]

Looking at the photo it's difficult at best to judge what material it's made of. Even looking at the photos in the book many different materials look very similar. Silver? Pewter? Bronze?
Although I can't say for sure just by looking at one picture, I'm thinking two possibilities: 1. Some version of arsenic bronze or, 2. A copper-tin-silver mix. In Europe, arsenic bronze (tombac) starts to show up in the 1600's and is of course, quite prevalent by the 1700's. I think Drew should find someone with a metal analysis spectrometer and get a definitive answer.

[OxShoeDrew]

The lighting on this pic makes it look almost iron, which it is not. I was thinking some kind of silver because, around here, tombac doesn't come out of the ground without some crud on it.

[Digger_O'Dell]

Although I can't say for sure just by looking at one picture, I'm thinking two possibilities: 1. Some version of arsenic bronze or, 2. A copper-tin-silver mix. In Europe, arsenic bronze (tombac) starts to show up in the 1600's and is of course, quite prevalent by the 1700's. I think Drew should find someone with a metal analysis spectrometer and get a definitive answer.

I was thinking tombac, but that appears 200-300 years after this brooch was likely made. I'm leaning more towards low grade silver.

[OxShoeDrew]

Wait, it has to be silver, its a solid 87 on the D2 vdi....can't be tombac, right?

[Full Metal Digger]

With numbers that high on the D2 (XP Deus II, right?), it could be straight up bronze or some mix of copper/silver. I've had large dandy tombacs hit in upper 80's in Germany, but in England they hit closer to the 50s/60s. Probably just the differences in alloy formulas between regions. I've never found a tombac in America with my Deus, but I'm thinking most were probably English imports. A good pawn shop or a gold/silver buying shop should have a spectrometer. I think it will be very helpful to know for 100% sure what it is made of.

[Lodge Scent]

Drew, here is one from Quebec that is similar to yours.

https://www.treasurenet.com/threads/found-this-brooch.633761/

[del]

I like the Brooch Drew and I like the good discussion it has brought to the forum .:thumbsup01: I'm some what in the middle on its age and could go either way really ....

A fur trade era ring brooch would be the more plausible approach to this and it wouldn't be out of the realm of it being a more personalized or fancied up kind to fetch a bit more of a premium or special gift to someone to gain influence .
On the other hand I could see it being a much older heirloom ring brooch brought from the old country and lost as well , no doubt someone was very upset at its loss in either case , Was there anything else found in the immediate area to help with its timeframe ? I hope some real evidence can be found to attribute this to its correct age but my real question is .....

Why wasn't this up on the banner !

Dan

[OxShoeDrew]

Thanks fellas! Great info! Coincidentally, I found a tombac today (pictured), this one rang up high 50s at 7in and solid 60 out of the ground. They always crack like that...I cleaned that one spot, which really looks like the metal in the brooch but rings up very differently. So Dave, you're right, ours must be from England...and that's why I believe the brooch is some type of bronzy silver as it rang up at 87.
Dan, it was on the banner years ago. Thanks!!

[Digger_O'Dell]

Quick question. On the last photo with the ruler, does it look like some kind of marking or inscription at the 1:00 position?

[Menzl]

Very interesting find. Unfortunately it has no decoration otherwise it would be easier to date it. Here in Germany I would date such a ring buckle also to the 13th century. You find really exciting things! The brooch from Quebec even has a mark. Does yours have something like that under the layers of dirt?

[OxShoeDrew]

Thank you, everyone! No, Chris, nothing written on back. It does look like though in the pic.
Menzi, maybe you were looking at the back, it does have some decoration on it. Here is the front-