Old silver

[don in ny]

You are absolutely correct Jyes. In the future I'll try and post correctly. I've found 5 pieces of silverware as well as a sterling knee buckle c.1770-1790 so far this year and have referred to the hallmarks in posts when they are as you correctly say, makers marks.

[Jyes]

Hard for us all to change what we have been saying probably for years, similar to using the term Reale, when there is no Reale!

[Tony Two-Cent]

Hard for us all to change what we have been saying probably for years, similar to using the term Reale, when there is no Reale!

You're exactly right! In fact, I've been tempted to start a thread about that exact topic but I didn't want to come across as a pedantic know-it-all.

It's either Real (singular) i.e. Half Real, One Real

or Reales (plural) i.e. 2 Reales, 4 Reales, 8 Reales

There is no such thing as a "Reale".

[Jyes]

I have posted exactly that on other forums and on FB and some have seen the light but I guess it is because they pronounce it Reale, that then thin that is the proper spelling. Even some technical writers have slipped up on this one.

Now back to trying to find the maker for Don and Neil's spoon. I do feel the age might be more 1830ish now, just based on similar spoons seen while researching that have same style, but I would not be surprised if a tad older, but factual proof of that is needed. Lack of reference books in my library really hurts the research.
Don

[don in ny]

It fits the style of 1820. Same design of the base of the handle with a pointed spoon bowl.

[Jyes]

Don, that fits my 1830ish estimate or a tad older rather well, I based it on seeing Arm & Hammer and eagle marks that are the same for the most part and those spoons that had makers that were on-line and appear around 1830+ period for using those marks. Maybe we will get lucky, I still think a Mass Silversmith is most likely.. Don

[don in ny]

Here's the 2 spoons I found this year that appear to be from around the same time period. The one on the top is the one I recently found at a site where the house was built in 1786 and the one on the bottom I found a few months ago at a house that was built prior to 1757. Interesting on has the design on the top of the spoon and one on the bottom.

[del]

Don here is another one on ebay but with very limited info , they suspect its from a New York silver smith.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/19th-Century-Coin-Silver-SALT-SPOON-w-mystery-marks-ARM-HAMMER-EAGLE-BUST-/161440739170?pt=Antiques_Silver&hash=item25969e2f6 2

[del]

Don this link is far more interesting look at page 7.

http://www.silversocietyofcanada.ca/...es/freeman.pdf

[don in ny]

I think you nailed it with that last one Del. Thanks. Makes sense too as Poughkeepsie is only 30-40 miles from where I found it.

[del]

Don , its these darn pseudo- maker marks , sometimes they mean or stand for something and sometimes I've read they were put on to fool people thinking they were actual British hallmarks . so the are hard to nail down but glad i could help.

Dan

[Neil in West Jersey]

Nice research on that one Dan! Don's find wasn't far from its origin, but the one I found made its way more than 100 miles where it was lost or buried.

[Jyes]

Another note of interest, when I posted a couple years back a coin silver initialed spoon I found (J Shoemaker of Phila) I was told that the three initials on the spoon are not the initials of the owner so to speak, but the first letter of the SURNAME, HUSBAND & WIFE. Never verified that but I believe it was Crusader from TNet who gave that information. Don

Did some googling of monogrammed coin silver spoons and saw that the three initials were during Victorian times used several different ways, did not find how they were for the period we are looking at (very late 1700s up to early mid 1800s).....

[Jyes]

OK, I wrote to the lady who wrote the article about Adam Henderson and got a very nice reply back from her... The spoon evidently was NOT made by A Henderson. The reason I inquired her was because of no name on the spoon where the example in her article had A Henderson on it. So I thought perhaps it was the mark of his former employer, or that at least that was an indication it was an older spoon due to no name, but evidently not the case. Here is her reply: Thank you for your email inquiry as a result of reading my article about Adam Henderson.Did you read article online at Silver Society of Canada website?
A fun coincidence that your friends found 2 similarly marked spoons varied places such as NY State and on Cape Cod!
Those two spoons have 3 pseudo-hallmarks (eagle-arm & hammer- bust) which probably were used by some coin silver maker in Orange County, NY (Newburgh or Middletown), on the opposite side (SW) of the Hudson River from Poughkeepsie.
That unidentified maker is said to be after 1830 in John R. McGrew's book, Manufacturing Marks on American Coin Silver.
This is the considered thinking of other silver historians as well.
Why no one knows for sure - Orange County 19th C. manufacturing census records lost in fire. Thus, only conjecture as to maker who used those marks.
The 3 pseudos were probably not the mark of Adam Henderson.
Certainly, they are not the mark of George Halliwell.
Since your 2 pseudo marks are on spoons that date from Adam Henderson's 1840's - 1850's period; we can date your spoons to mid-19th C.
They are not of a very early date.
In the top spoon photo you sent me - I cannot tell if it is dirt or a name on the stem along with the 3 pseudos. Name?
In my article, I was concentrating solely on marks used by Adam Henderson - not the specialized study of pseudo-hallmarks.
That is a whole other discussion.
I enjoyed hearing from you, Kay Olson Freeman

[del]

so this begs the question ... why would a maker use the same or very similar marks that was already used by another maker ?? to capitalize on someone else's well established trade or "renown quality or craftsmanship" or could the pseudo marks have been part of a localized silversmith "guild" that was used by a few silversmiths until they were very well established ??

[Jyes]

That is one of the reasons I thought that perhaps the silversmith that A Henderson worked for as an apprentice George Halliwell, that it was his mark that Adam continued using, but guess not. It is interesting that she said it is not A Henderson spoons... Just not enough knowledge by me to give any further opinions... I basically thought since it did not have his name, but his makers marks that perhaps it was an earlier spoon marking he did, but again, guess not.

[HEAVYMETALNUT]

looks colonial possibly? if not early 1800's based on the script is my guess.beautiful!

[del]

looks colonial possibly? if not early 1800's based on the script is my guess.beautiful!

Yeah , Don how about a nice close look at that hand tooled monogram

[Jyes]

A closeup of both Neil's and Don's would be nice, just looking at existing photos the two spoons seemed to have been done by the same individual, but as far as dating by the script, I think not appropriate on this type of spoon to say colonial or even late 1700s. The Fiddle style like the ones posted seem to fit the ones mentioned on a few websites as 1820ish and beyond. I have a different style coin silver one that dates 1790-1810 based on the name J SHOEMAKER, since he was a silversmith in Philly during that time frame and the style matches the dating on this website, which has the Fiddle type as 1820 era. http://www.pewterbank.com/Spoons_..articles..13.pdf Don H

[don in ny]

Here's a scan of the monogram