Sunday's Cellar hunt*3 copper day, Silver Knee Buckle, Dagger Hilt*

[Jyes]

Tony, a couple years ago I did the diameters/weights and Ferrous and Non Ferrous readings on most of my colonial finds and some early American coins and here is what I got from the Conn coppers I did. As far as results, well, the VT and NJ coppers all were pretty close to each other on readouts on the Explorer SE Pro, but the Conn coppers were rather varied. I know it is said they used at times copper that may have not been as pure as it could have been, not sure if that is rumor or truth, but seems I remember reading that somewhere, so I guess seeing that they do vary on the readings on my detector, that might be the reason. Corrosion is not a big factor in the readouts, that is one result I concluded from the study.....

YEAR	WEIGHT	DIAMETER	FERROUS	CONDUCTIVE	REMARKS
1785	119.4	28.5	2	29	M.6.4-l
1786	94.2	28.2	5	28	M.14.2-S
1788	125.1	27.3	4	28	M.7-E
1787	110.5	28.4	2	29	M.33.1-Z.13
1787	124.5	28.5	1	29	M.33.2-Z.5
1787	113.0	28.5	2	29	M.33.8-Z.13
1787	126.1	28.1	0	29	M.33.17-r.1
1787-88	85.5	26.4	5	28	?
1788	129.8	27.3	7	26	M.12.1-E
1786	151.0	27.8	3	28	M.5.8-F
1787	121.7	27.8	3	28	M.8-O
1787	133.5	28.4	0	29	M.39.1-h.1 small hole
1787	118.1	28.4	3	28	M.30-hh.1
1788	112.0	28.2	6	27	M.16.3-N

[Jyes]

Cast Counterfeits: I have always had a problem telling a cast by looks, Dr Mossman, who I have dealt with quite a bit on the subject has shot me down several times on coins I thought were cast, so I am leary of saying by looks. He usually says look for file marks, look for port marks and what is the Specific Gravity. Well SG is a pain to do in my opinion, so I usually am only 100% certain when I see file marks or evidence of ports on the edge. I did the readouts with the Explorer in hopes that it would help in determining whether a coin is counterfeit or not but results ended up being inconclusive for the most part. Yes, always look for rough surfaces, mushy letters, etc. Unfortunately, even weight is not always a help in determining, especially with CT coppers since they vary a lot, but comparing weights once you know the variety with others of the same, can help in determining. I guess the only solid answer is Specific Gravity test with a known good one for a certain variety with the one you are checking....... Don H

[del]

Don , To me these two coins look much cruder because of the bumpy , grainy or porous background and the strong pronounced letters , yet they are very worn looking. yes my Connecticut's do vary slightly in readings on my machine , maybe 5 to 10 vdi's (i've tested all under the same conditions) and because of weight and diameter variations I can understand that. I , like Jeff and Todd have a couple that read more then 30 vdi numbers lower (more like a shotgun shell then a copper) which can only be because of a mixture of metal composition or not even copper at all.

heres the link to Jeff copper when he found it it also shows the very crude reverse .
http://www.americandetectorist.com/f...h-Drew-and-Dan

[Jyes]

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/to...ut-copper.html After rereading Bramblefinds post on TNet, and seeing her photos (looks like file marks on edge?) John Lorenzo did an XRF analysis on her suspected cast CT and came back as mostly a bronze mixture. I do not agree with John's statement on surface contaminants, since every coin I have tried dirty/corroded/cleaned did not seem to be affected by corrosion. Also, that would mean 15% is missing from his analysis if the iron is surface contaminant? Jeff's copper, with the reverse photo now being seen sure looks like a lousy done cast job, unless something else happened if die struck, or fire. But have to lean for sure with his but not for sure with Todd's, but that does increase the chances of it being cast. The Whitman Baltimore show going on right now and most of the "experts" are there right now, but maybe Dr Mossman is not, so I might send him the photos for his opinion.

[del]

That was a good read Don and this has been a great informative thread . I find it was very interesting as to the many different types of metal that was actually in Bramblefinds coin. The miller 37.6-B. Connecticut i found last year is also another one of these very low reading coins but doesn't have the porous crude "sand cast" look these coins display but does look like a bronze coin , i would be very interested in getting it tested like Bramblefinds did.

if Jeff's and Todd's coins are both counterfeit and from the same exact variety , would it increase the odds there might have been an unknown mass counterfeiter out there somewhere ?

Dan

[Jyes]

When the Baltimore /C4 convention is over this weekend, I will try and find out who is the go to guy for this subject. In the meantime, just in case Dr Mossman did not attend and is at home in Va, I will see what he has to say.

I did compare to see if perhaps the two came from the same coin and not sure, look at the cud or rim damage and compare, perhaps the same but than again, different area, could just be result of casting. I will also look to see if any articles were written on the subject either in C4NL or CNL, but only have the early years of CNL articles. It is interesting subject, and like I said before, IF you can do a good Specific Gravity test (I tried and did not get steady accurate results) That would be a good substitute for an XRF analysis, since thru the SG you can at least eliminate a good copper coin from an inferior one by the results.
Oh, the other thing, diameter is always a tad smaller on cast coins, trouble is you need a legit one of the same variety, perhaps even two to compare with......
Don H

[Thiltzy]

Weight in grams and size in MM

[del]

7.9 grams comes to about 121.92 grains which is probably well within the weights of Connecticut coppers , thanks Todd.

so with that in mind if it was pure copper it would definitely vdi much higher in the copper coin area , so its looking like another debased metal composition coin and not an under weight coin.

[Thiltzy]

Rang up at 37 VDI on both mine and Daves Machine's

[HEAVYMETALNUT]

Rang up at 37 VDI on both mine and Daves Machine's

yep very low 37-40 consistantly.not going above 40

[Jayson's Treasure Hunting]

Nice hunting spot and great finds.

[Lodge Scent]

Here's a pic of the edge of my suspected counterfeit CT. It's tough to get a good photo with a smart phone but you can definitely see what appears to be file marks. They are found around most of the edge and generally all flow in the same direction. This coin weighs in at 8.5 grams.

Jeff

[del]

Jeff , just above the halfway point of that rim are some small sightly angled left to right marks that look like they could be file marks . thanks for showing them .