Results 1 to 6 of 6

Thread: Button Help Please.

  1. #1
    Senior Member fyrffytr1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    southwset Georgia
    Posts
    501

    Button Help Please.

    I am posting this for a friend. It is a 1 piece button with the backmark of "Firmin & Sons 153 Strand London" I cannot figure out the obverse. Why would a porcupine be chasing an alligator or crocodile with a banner over its head. Any and all help is greatly appreciated.
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    My wife does all the driving, I just hold the steering wheel!

  2. #2
    I saw this button on Facebook the other day. The only thing I can think of is it somehow relates to two British pubs, the Crocodile and the Porcupine. Perhaps they had some type of partnership and this button went on their jackets or something?
    Oldest Coin: 100-60 BC Gallic Coin (Sequani Tribe)
    Oldest Silver Coin: 1156 Pfennig from Bavaria, Germany
    Oldest U.S. coin: 1805 Draped Bust Large Cent
    Best Coin EVER: 1625 4 Sols from Chateau Renaud, France
    Best Relics: Bronze Age Arrowheads & Spearhead, 2c Roman silver ring
    YouTube Channel: Full Metal Digger

  3. #3
    Administrator del's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    12,684
    its a livery button ... these usually depict animal or military themes of renown British , Welsh ,Scottish family crests on them . here are a couple of links to some examples Porcupine - Livery Buttons Identified (google.com) , perhaps the other is a lizard Lizard - Livery Buttons Identified (google.com) . Maybe it represents the joining of two houses .

    Dan
    XP Deus Ws5 , DFX ,TDI sl -

    Click here to view my finds album

  4. #4
    Senior Member fyrffytr1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    southwset Georgia
    Posts
    501
    Thanks for the replies. I have learned that, as Del said, it is a livery button but it is rare to see one with two houses of nobility on it. Maybe it was a unification through marriage. I also learned that the way to tell it is a livery button is buy the six links found below the symbol. It is called a Torse and here is what I was told about it:
    "The key ID-clue for this button is the presence of a Heraldry device known as a Torse, located underneath the Family Crest. A Torse is a wreath, but viewed "on edge" (as if it was laying flat on the ground below the Crest), instead of the usual standing-up view of a wreath. A Torse always has 6 furls."
    My wife does all the driving, I just hold the steering wheel!

  5. #5
    Global Moderator OxShoeDrew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    6,197
    Very interesting, thanks!
    On Instagram- oxshoedrew

  6. #6
    Senior Member fyrffytr1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    southwset Georgia
    Posts
    501
    The correct Id for this button is as follows:

    For comparison, button and family crest. The Speke crest was unique with the word NILE included, not a common thing with family heraldry.
    Sure looks like the word NILE in the banner on the button as well. Even the bars under the croc and the porcupine are similar, 6 segments under each. I'd guess the guy laying out the button for Firmin & Sons was working directly from this crest.





    As for the crocodile and the porcupine, John Hanning Speke wrote an account of his exploration in Africa in search of the source of the Nile River. In it he has many entries about the crocodiles encountered. As well, the porcupines, which were considered a delicacy by his native guides and became a main part of their diet along the way.
    My wife does all the driving, I just hold the steering wheel!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •