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Thread: Brooch Date

  1. #1

    Brooch Date

    Anyone want to hazard a guess as to the age of this Indian Fur Trader brooch?
    On Instagram- oxshoedrew

  2. #2
    341 years old
    Oldest find: 5,000 year old copper spearhead
    Oldest coin: 1699 William III halfpenny
    Purdiest coin: 1832 Capped Bust quarter
    Coolest find: USA button with blue threads still on shank

    "He who would search for pearls must dive below."

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Lodge Scent View Post
    341 years old
    Can you be more precise? Sure, 341 years, but how many months and days?
    Lifetime totals:
    9 Large Cents, 415 Indian Heads, 2 Two Cent Pieces, 1 Capped Bust Half Dime, 1 Seated Half Dime, 10 Shield Nickels, 68 V Nickels, 124 Buffalo Nickels, 31 War Nickels, 16 Seated Dimes, 131 Barber Dimes, 404 Mercury Dimes, 248 Rosies, 4 Seated Quarters, 18 Barber Quarters, 19 Standing Liberty Quarters, 89 Silver Washingtons, 1 Seated Half, 3 Barber Halves, 16 Walking Liberty Halves

    YouTube Channel: Tony Two-Cent https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmz...RlHTBIU42bUORg

  4. #4
    Monday, June 3rd, 1709...we're still working on the exact time, we think after lunch.

    A few people told me they think it's a medieval annular brooch. One guy said he found one in MA which he calls medieval. People were surprised mine was found in the states. BUT I do not believe this. At this point I still believe Jeff nailed it. I'm guessing this comes from near the beginnings of the fur trade in North America, maybe late 1600s to early 1700s. I think this because it was found in NE CT and I thought all the beavers were hunted out and the trade moved west past those dates...but I'm just guessing. I was hoping someone could date it through the style like shoe buckles.
    On Instagram- oxshoedrew

  5. #5
    All I can say is that it looks very much like the medieval brooches that people find in the UK and Germany.
    Lifetime totals:
    9 Large Cents, 415 Indian Heads, 2 Two Cent Pieces, 1 Capped Bust Half Dime, 1 Seated Half Dime, 10 Shield Nickels, 68 V Nickels, 124 Buffalo Nickels, 31 War Nickels, 16 Seated Dimes, 131 Barber Dimes, 404 Mercury Dimes, 248 Rosies, 4 Seated Quarters, 18 Barber Quarters, 19 Standing Liberty Quarters, 89 Silver Washingtons, 1 Seated Half, 3 Barber Halves, 16 Walking Liberty Halves

    YouTube Channel: Tony Two-Cent https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmz...RlHTBIU42bUORg

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Two-Cent View Post
    All I can say is that it looks very much like the medieval brooches that people find in the UK and Germany.
    I agree with that Tony, it does look medieval. The NA fur trade brooches I've seen are typically plain but the owner of that brooch could have spiced that one up himself. Really is a cool find and fun to ponder its origin.
    Oldest find: 5,000 year old copper spearhead
    Oldest coin: 1699 William III halfpenny
    Purdiest coin: 1832 Capped Bust quarter
    Coolest find: USA button with blue threads still on shank

    "He who would search for pearls must dive below."

  7. #7
    Elite Member Digger_O'Dell's Avatar
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    Here's my 2 cents worth. I did some searching online and found countless medieval ring brooches and cloak pins that look nearly identical, although with a variation in decorations. Its also known that the Vikings had been to Connecticut. Specifically the Mystic Ct. region as found on one Viking map. So my guess is it could be from that time period as it fits the design style period and known visitation by European travelers.
    One other way to verify it would be to analyze the metal it's made of. I suspect it may have a lot of silver content since it didn't oxidize like an iron piece would have, although not nearly as high as coin silver which also lends me to think viking.
    Last edited by Digger_O'Dell; 02-06-2023 at 06:22 PM.
    Equipment:
    Minelab: CTX 3030, GPX 4800, X-Terra 705. Whites TDI SL.

    2023 Silver: 1 Gold: 0

    Best finds: 28 silver dime spill, 1800s Dutch customs seal.
    Oldest/best coins: 1837 Upper Canada large cent, 1877 Seated Dime
    Oldest find: 1800 Sailors Luck token
    You Tube: Rediscovering America

  8. #8
    After reading Digger's response, I will say it is clearly a modern reproduction Drew and you don't want it anymore. It's just wasting good space in your finds dispaly case. But I'll give you $5 bucks for it just to take it off you hands.
    Oldest find: 5,000 year old copper spearhead
    Oldest coin: 1699 William III halfpenny
    Purdiest coin: 1832 Capped Bust quarter
    Coolest find: USA button with blue threads still on shank

    "He who would search for pearls must dive below."

  9. #9
    That would be sooo cool! Thanks, Chris! You know, as a kid I remember listening to Moondog The Viking on 6th ave. He was a blind musician who played on the street everyday dressed as a Viking. He was before the naked cowboy and more psychedelic. I always assumed the piece was silver, I have some colonial cuffs that have the same dark silver look to them.
    Jeff... we may never know its origins, it would be tough to pin it down.
    On Instagram- oxshoedrew

  10. #10
    This is going to blow your mind, but ALL my reference books put that brooch 13th and 14th century! I've found several but NONE as nice as yours! I'll post some pics later so you can see what I'm looking at. Congratulations on an extremely rare find!
    Oldest Coin: 100-60 BC Gallic bronze coin (Sequani Tribe)
    Oldest Silver Coin: 1156 hammered Pfennig from (now) Bavaria
    Oldest U.S. coin: 1805 Draped Bust Large Cent
    Best Coins EVER: 1625 4 Sols from Kingdom of Chateau Renaud, France
    1662 15 Kreuzers, Leopold I, Austria
    Best Relics: Bronze Age Arrowheads & Spearhead, 2c Roman silver ring, complete medieval knight's spur (x6)
    YouTube Channel: Full Metal Digger

  11. #11
    Drew, here are some reference pics on your brooch. After thinking about it for a bit, I think you have made a significant archeological find. It's possible this brooch is evidence of European contact with native Americans that is much earlier than previously thought. It is not hard to imagine this item being passed down several generations within the tribe until the fur trader days when it was lost. I recently read about a guy up in Newfoundland who found a 1420's English gold coin at an early site. Have you considered showing it to the museum to get their take on it?
    Attached Images Attached Images     
    Oldest Coin: 100-60 BC Gallic bronze coin (Sequani Tribe)
    Oldest Silver Coin: 1156 hammered Pfennig from (now) Bavaria
    Oldest U.S. coin: 1805 Draped Bust Large Cent
    Best Coins EVER: 1625 4 Sols from Kingdom of Chateau Renaud, France
    1662 15 Kreuzers, Leopold I, Austria
    Best Relics: Bronze Age Arrowheads & Spearhead, 2c Roman silver ring, complete medieval knight's spur (x6)
    YouTube Channel: Full Metal Digger

  12. #12
    OMG!!!! I don't know what to think Thanks so much for the info, Dave!! I guess I have to show a museum! What I was doing was writing a piece for our historical society about the fur trade in our area and was going to showcase that find...but it seems I have more research to do.
    On Instagram- oxshoedrew

  13. #13
    Elite Member Digger_O'Dell's Avatar
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    That's some amazing info! Looking at the photo it's difficult at best to judge what material it's made of. Even looking at the photos in the book many different materials look very similar. Silver? Pewter? Bronze? I would certainly get your museum involved. Make sure you have documentation (or notation) of the exact site and depth you found it.

    Also, I would get back there ASAP and see if there's any more to be found. Who knows if there isn't a Saxon hoard there! Yeah, that would really blow the historians away!
    Equipment:
    Minelab: CTX 3030, GPX 4800, X-Terra 705. Whites TDI SL.

    2023 Silver: 1 Gold: 0

    Best finds: 28 silver dime spill, 1800s Dutch customs seal.
    Oldest/best coins: 1837 Upper Canada large cent, 1877 Seated Dime
    Oldest find: 1800 Sailors Luck token
    You Tube: Rediscovering America

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Digger_O'Dell View Post
    Looking at the photo it's difficult at best to judge what material it's made of. Even looking at the photos in the book many different materials look very similar. Silver? Pewter? Bronze?
    Although I can't say for sure just by looking at one picture, I'm thinking two possibilities: 1. Some version of arsenic bronze or, 2. A copper-tin-silver mix. In Europe, arsenic bronze (tombac) starts to show up in the 1600's and is of course, quite prevalent by the 1700's. I think Drew should find someone with a metal analysis spectrometer and get a definitive answer.
    Oldest Coin: 100-60 BC Gallic bronze coin (Sequani Tribe)
    Oldest Silver Coin: 1156 hammered Pfennig from (now) Bavaria
    Oldest U.S. coin: 1805 Draped Bust Large Cent
    Best Coins EVER: 1625 4 Sols from Kingdom of Chateau Renaud, France
    1662 15 Kreuzers, Leopold I, Austria
    Best Relics: Bronze Age Arrowheads & Spearhead, 2c Roman silver ring, complete medieval knight's spur (x6)
    YouTube Channel: Full Metal Digger

  15. #15
    The lighting on this pic makes it look almost iron, which it is not. I was thinking some kind of silver because, around here, tombac doesn't come out of the ground without some crud on it.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    On Instagram- oxshoedrew

  16. #16
    Elite Member Digger_O'Dell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Full Metal Digger View Post
    Although I can't say for sure just by looking at one picture, I'm thinking two possibilities: 1. Some version of arsenic bronze or, 2. A copper-tin-silver mix. In Europe, arsenic bronze (tombac) starts to show up in the 1600's and is of course, quite prevalent by the 1700's. I think Drew should find someone with a metal analysis spectrometer and get a definitive answer.
    I was thinking tombac, but that appears 200-300 years after this brooch was likely made. I'm leaning more towards low grade silver.
    Equipment:
    Minelab: CTX 3030, GPX 4800, X-Terra 705. Whites TDI SL.

    2023 Silver: 1 Gold: 0

    Best finds: 28 silver dime spill, 1800s Dutch customs seal.
    Oldest/best coins: 1837 Upper Canada large cent, 1877 Seated Dime
    Oldest find: 1800 Sailors Luck token
    You Tube: Rediscovering America

  17. #17
    Wait, it has to be silver, its a solid 87 on the D2 vdi....can't be tombac, right?
    On Instagram- oxshoedrew

  18. #18
    With numbers that high on the D2 (XP Deus II, right?), it could be straight up bronze or some mix of copper/silver. I've had large dandy tombacs hit in upper 80's in Germany, but in England they hit closer to the 50s/60s. Probably just the differences in alloy formulas between regions. I've never found a tombac in America with my Deus, but I'm thinking most were probably English imports. A good pawn shop or a gold/silver buying shop should have a spectrometer. I think it will be very helpful to know for 100% sure what it is made of.
    Oldest Coin: 100-60 BC Gallic bronze coin (Sequani Tribe)
    Oldest Silver Coin: 1156 hammered Pfennig from (now) Bavaria
    Oldest U.S. coin: 1805 Draped Bust Large Cent
    Best Coins EVER: 1625 4 Sols from Kingdom of Chateau Renaud, France
    1662 15 Kreuzers, Leopold I, Austria
    Best Relics: Bronze Age Arrowheads & Spearhead, 2c Roman silver ring, complete medieval knight's spur (x6)
    YouTube Channel: Full Metal Digger

  19. #19
    Drew, here is one from Quebec that is similar to yours.

    https://www.treasurenet.com/threads/...brooch.633761/
    Oldest find: 5,000 year old copper spearhead
    Oldest coin: 1699 William III halfpenny
    Purdiest coin: 1832 Capped Bust quarter
    Coolest find: USA button with blue threads still on shank

    "He who would search for pearls must dive below."

  20. #20
    Administrator del's Avatar
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    Location
    Connecticut
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    I like the Brooch Drew and I like the good discussion it has brought to the forum . I'm some what in the middle on its age and could go either way really ....

    A fur trade era ring brooch would be the more plausible approach to this and it wouldn't be out of the realm of it being a more personalized or fancied up kind to fetch a bit more of a premium or special gift to someone to gain influence .
    On the other hand I could see it being a much older heirloom ring brooch brought from the old country and lost as well , no doubt someone was very upset at its loss in either case , Was there anything else found in the immediate area to help with its timeframe ? I hope some real evidence can be found to attribute this to its correct age but my real question is .....

    Why wasn't this up on the banner !

    Dan
    "Honesty is an expensive gift ,
    so don't expect it from cheap people"

    XP Deus II , DFX ,TDI sl -

    Click here to view my finds album


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