What would you do? (School Responded)

[CTDirtFisher]

I was detecting at our schools admistration building today that used to be a school... A gentleman approached me, he asked what I was doing as he presented his business card with the title of Director of Buildings and Grounds for the School system...

He told me that I could not be there and I asked if this was public property and he confirmed that it was... He explained that I should be checking in and asking permission to be on the grounds... I asked if I needed permission to use the swings or play with my kids there on the weekend and he said that was different...

The only state reg in CT for metal detecting cover state parks... there no local town regs and nothing at the state school web site or the local schools web site about property usage or metal detecting... After he asked me to leave the 4th time I left... I suggested that he call the town clerk and or board of ed concerning any regulations... He was not aware of any but kept tell me he did NOT think I could be there... He is the Director of building & ground... He should know right... I was trying to be polite, but was not doing a good job at making any point... He said that someone complained that I was digging the place up... I explained that I had dug about 200 holes over the last week and asked him if he could see any of them and I showed him how I cut a pug, put the dirt on a towel and only leave footprints as I am very respectful to the property...

Here is the Email I sent him:

Mr. XXXXXXXX,

I wished that we had meet under different circumstances, but that being said my recall of the state regulation only speaks to State Parks and is the only state regulation to deal with Metal Detectors...

I have talked to the town clerks in XXXXXXXX asking for local regulations regarding metal detectors and was told there are none. I have been to the Ct. State Department of Education and the XXXXX Public school site and don't see regulation regarding property usage or the specific call out of metal detectors or metal detecting .

Having said that I thought I had checked the federal side (Can't be on National Historic site... like Ft. Griswold or Ft. Trumbal), CT State, and local laws and/rules. There are no posted signs and I would not think that I have to get permission to use say the swings on a weekend day.

Additionally I would not enter a school property during school hours with the knowledge that children were present... I know the XXXXX building is administration as listed in the groton schools web page.

I've attached the State Regulation for your review.

As a metal detector I would never want to knowingly break the law or go against regulations. I have never left any holes or trash, even the trash we dig up is removed (IE pull tabs, cans, etc...) I always leave gates and the grounds as I found them only leaving behind footsteps at most. I am always respectful to the property and have been back to most public places I hunt at dozens of times. I have talked with local park rangers and the police over the years and have never had an issue, been challenged or caused any type of issue.

For today I am sorry that I startled someone for them to make a complaint...

How do we proceed from here? I would like to be respectful and metal detect at the local schools, but want to make sure that I am following all federal, state and local laws. I can't seem to find any regulation banning metal detecting or the use of this public property but would like to do whatever I can ensure you I am not someone here to do any type of harm to the property, facilities, or people within...

I only pointed out the number of targets I recovered last weekend so you could see that you can't tell I've been there. I have spent hundreds of hours at local schools recovering targets with the same results... Respect for the property and the people.

Thank you for your time today and again I'm sorry to have startled anyone and I look forward to your response in this matter.

Respectfully,
Paul XXXXXX

Did I handle all of this right, will this be on the next agenda for a town / board of education meeting? Should I wait to hear back from him... Should I head back over I've never had an issue or been challenged... The police wave to me all of the time...

Frustrated... confused... Not sure what to do...
Paul

[Epi-hunter]

I have had this happen to me here in KY (it never happened when I lived in Iowa, but things are much more conservative here). I left immediately after explaining that I was being respectful of property. I didn't argue the point. It was one school, in one area of town, and one confrontation.

I think all it will accomplish to bring it into the public eye is that you may find yourself facing a newly-developed rule that you may no longer metal detect there. However if you don't make an issue of it, this one situation may be forgotten.

[CTDirtFisher]

I have had this happen to me here in KY (it never happened when I lived in Iowa, but things are much more conservative here). I left immediately after explaining that I was being respectful of property. I didn't argue the point. It was one school, in one area of town, and one confrontation.

I think all it will accomplish to bring it into the public eye is that you may find yourself facing a newly-developed rule that you may no longer metal detect there. However if you don't make an issue of it, this one situation may be forgotten.

I absolutely agree and don't want this to go any further... but there are many school in the system and this guy is in charge of the grounds at all of them... So would you never go back or I love school hunting and when you come home and only had an hour or 90 minutes... they are my 1st choice.... *shrug*

Oddly enough. he is my step fathers nephew... He never meet me, but I pointed out the relationship / connection to him...

[coinnut]

Do you have Alderman or Selectmen or other Representatives? Talk with them or better yet use that family relationship to get to him. Get his wife on your side and he will never bother you again or he'll get this lol I think it was the usual macho thing. I'm in charge and I'm gonna stretch my authority to kick you out. Legally he probably has little grounds to kick you out, but politically you will only get metal detecting banned from schools if you push the wrong way. Just my thoughts. Find out what bar he gets his drinks at and get him a drink, he needs one.

[Cheap Thrills]

I had ran into a similar problem at one of my old favorite spots . I just quit hunting the spot as I didn't want to open up a messy can of worms . I have since found a couple of hassle free spots with friendly people that let me enjoy my detecting time to the fullest .There is nothing wrong with the way you handled situation but I am in total agreement with what coinut has previously stated .

Baba

[John M]

Well this can be a touchy one to cover.I live in Bozrah Ct. and have been told it is no problem detecting any town property as long as I don't dig up the water lines.Now I do know that the city of Norwich does not permit metal detecting on city property at all.I had inquired at the town hall and was told that there is a no digging ordinance on any property that parks & recreation or department of public works maintains which seems to cover it all.But there is a gray area with the public schools...they all have their own custodian that maintains the grounds.When I asked about this situation I was told that it should be okay to detect them just as long as there is no activities going on,but I should check with each school to make sure they do not object.
So you may really have to check with the town of Groton to make sure everything is permissible. Although the state has some specific guidelines each town may have their own as well.

[CTDirtFisher]

Well this can be a touchy one to cover.I live in Bozrah Ct. and have been told it is no problem detecting any town property as long as I don't dig up the water lines.Now I do know that the city of Norwich does not permit metal detecting on city property at all.I had inquired at the town hall and was told that there is a no digging ordinance on any property that parks & recreation or department of public works maintains which seems to cover it all.But there is a gray area with the public schools...they all have their own custodian that maintains the grounds.When I asked about this situation I was told that it should be okay to detect them just as long as there is no activities going on,but I should check with each school to make sure they do not object.
So you may really have to check with the town of Groton to make sure everything is permissible. Although the state has some specific guidelines each town may have their own as well.

Groton Town and GrotonCity have NO regulations regarding Metal Detecting... Local law enforcement has seen me as I've spent hundreds of hours at our local sites... Schools, parks... etc...

[Epi-hunter]

I absolutely agree and don't want this to go any further... but there are many school in the system and this guy is in charge of the grounds at all of them... So would you never go back or I love school hunting and when you come home and only had an hour or 90 minutes... they are my 1st choice.... *shrug*

Oddly enough. he is my step fathers nephew... He never meet me, but I pointed out the relationship / connection to him...

What I would do is let it go, definitely don't let it be brought up as a public issue at a school board meeting or similar (you can bet that will result in a new rule for no metal detecting) and go back to the schools when you think it's least likely that you might run into Ninja Schoolgrounds man. If you run into him again and he asks you to leave... leave. And the same, the next time you run into him. And the next time.

Better yet, the next time you run into him, be extra friendly, show him all the trash and dangerous glass and sharp metal objects that you found and are disposing of. Then remind him that you are related, and ask if you can buy him a drink (like coinnut said lol)

If he chooses to make it into an issue and brings it to the attention of his supervisors or the school district, leave that to him. And at that point you can deal with the politics. I doubt it will come to that.

[leslie(nova scotia)]

From the land of the Bluenose.....I agree with the fact that this hobby doesn't need waves....tactical withdrawal and try back later after permission is granted!

[CTDirtFisher]

Schools Response:

These are some the issues I see with anyone digging holes on school property without the knowledge of those responsible:

· An unidentified person on school property is not an issue as long as that person does not appear to be doing anything unusual or is not on the grounds when school children present. When school children are not present and school is in session it is our practice to challenge strangers.
· Digging holes in the lawn that could damage turf or create a hazard is an issue.
· If something of value is discovered on or under public property, that item is likely the property of the Town.
· While people using the recreational equipment on school grounds are welcome and are rarely challenged, I believe someone digging holes in the lawn is not a typical use of public property and should be questioned every time by those responsible for the safety and security of school property.
· Digging holes on public property where there could be buried utilities requires “call before you dig� to affected utility companies and to the property owner. I am not sure how deep you may dig to unearth an item but it could be deep enough to require mapping of underground utilities first. At Fitch High School for example, until recently high voltage wires were buried with no conduit just 24 inches below grade between the school and Groton Long Point Road.
· Should a person digging holes on public property be injured for any reason, Groton could have exposure to liability.


I do not want anyone unduly denied access to public property. As required under Board of Education P1330 approval for use of school facilities will require insurance naming the district as additionally insured. Also, an application must indicate where the proposed digging would take place and when, and we would have to know when the digging was complete so the area could be checked. It is also possible that the area would have to be mapped for underground utilities prior to digging as required by law.

Please let me know if you would like to request permission to continue digging on school grounds. If you do, we will have to work out the details before you can continue.

[RickO]

Very sad, this is an ego issue with that individual now. He is going to be right, no matter what. Too bad, these type of people are a legend in their own mind, and would like to impose their will on everyone - since they know best. I do not thinkyou can win this one. RickO

[coinnut]

Schools Response:

These are some the issues I see with anyone digging holes on school property without the knowledge of those responsible:

· An unidentified person on school property is not an issue as long as that person does not appear to be doing anything unusual or is not on the grounds when school children present. When school children are not present and school is in session it is our practice to challenge strangers.
· Digging holes in the lawn that could damage turf or create a hazard is an issue.
· If something of value is discovered on or under public property, that item is likely the property of the Town.
· While people using the recreational equipment on school grounds are welcome and are rarely challenged, I believe someone digging holes in the lawn is not a typical use of public property and should be questioned every time by those responsible for the safety and security of school property.
· Digging holes on public property where there could be buried utilities requires “call before you dig� to affected utility companies and to the property owner. I am not sure how deep you may dig to unearth an item but it could be deep enough to require mapping of underground utilities first. At Fitch High School for example, until recently high voltage wires were buried with no conduit just 24 inches below grade between the school and Groton Long Point Road.
· Should a person digging holes on public property be injured for any reason, Groton could have exposure to liability.


I do not want anyone unduly denied access to public property. As required under Board of Education P1330 approval for use of school facilities will require insurance naming the district as additionally insured. Also, an application must indicate where the proposed digging would take place and when, and we would have to know when the digging was complete so the area could be checked. It is also possible that the area would have to be mapped for underground utilities prior to digging as required by law.

Please let me know if you would like to request permission to continue digging on school grounds. If you do, we will have to work out the details before you can continue.

Wow, I see a lot of potential in that response, I would write them, thanking them for clarifying their response and asking them if they had time to get together with you on it. They left every door open to you being able to hunt. The part about the holes was written that if you left &quotad holes it was not allowed. Not that digging wasn't allowed, but only if it created a hazard. Also the part about the 24 down lines. tell them you never go over 6 deep and that your machine would only responde to shallow, small targets and finally the part about finding anything valuable? Show them some dirty Memorials, Jeffersons, a toy car, pull tabs and include some scrap iron, and tell them you only do this for enjoyment and excersize and never for great profits. Also practice your digging to demonstrate how well you dig. Be polite and thankful that you have a chance to continue digging there. I would go for it. I feel that letter was well written with the opportunities put in there, IF you wanted to persue them. To me they left the door open for you. Just the way I read it.

[CTDirtFisher]

So coinnut gave me inspiration...

Mr. XXXXX,

Thank you for your quick response and reply in this matter. I do thank you for your time in looking into this. Would there be 30 minutes for us to get together on this, at your convience for me to make sure I am gathering what is needed and for me to share a little based on some questions from below (ie How deep I dig, what is revovered, value of items...)

I work not far up the road from you and can come over at your convience.

Let me know...

Respectfully,
Paul XXXXXX

He wrote back 30 minutes later:

Give me a call at XXX-XXX_XXXX when you are available to come over and we can discuss the matter.

[coinnut]

Cool, I hope things go well. I think they just want to have control of this issue. So I would keep it low key and unconfrontational. Maybe it will work out. Let us know. The worst that they can say is no, and that's no worse than the answer you already had. lol

[Beefcake]

my suggestion... If you really really really want to hunt this place... you're gonna have to kiss up a bit. Give him all the information about how this hobby works and even disply for him the way you do it. Offer him a chance to go hunting with you never know.. alot of times seeing it in action really peeks their curiousity. If you can finagle a way to keep it low key and definately keep it from going any higher in the ranks than him...it might work out really well for you... but, if it reaches higher than him, it could be the end of it for sure. Most people don't know anything about being a detectorist and simply see it as digging holes in the ground. Put on your best practices and put on your best show for him...and pray..lol I had a similar situation with the police and the mayor saying that all finds were city property... I offered him up some pull tabs and can slaw... It generally doesn't go well after you get a big NO from any officials even if there are no laws (like my area) that prohibits it on public property. Good luck!

[CyberSage]

I personally think he is on a power trip. Let it go and move on to your next location. I am sure the rest off the staff at that location are aware of his attitude issues. I have noticed a lot of school staff working on the weekends and after school hours. I see their cars in the parking lots. I have had interaction with them quite often. These are hard working people. I Never had a negative experience. If I did have a teacher ask me not to dig, I would just bite my tongue and move on. The schools are for the kids first and foremost. We should strive to support the schools we hunt. I think your well educated approach is being wasted on someone with an ego. Good for you for being aware off the local laws. This is always important in our hobby.

Keep swing'in
Jack

[z118]

This reminds me of the one time I was approached by an official at a school. It was early on a weekend morning; I had hit the same school a few weekends before. I was doing my thing, digging a target, and when I stood up suddenly there was a guy behind me. He asked me how I was doing, identified himself as the principal of the school, and promptly said You know, you can't do that here. I indicated that I was not aware of this rule and he asked Were you here a few weekends ago? I said yes. He went on to say that he knew I was because his groundskeeper had apparently gone nuts having seen me there earlier. The groundkeeper insisted that I was ruining the lawn and demanded the principal review the tapes (the whole schoolyard is monitored on camera) to find out who I was. The principal looked at the grass where I had been digging and said It doesn't look like you hurting the grass to me. Do you always fill in the holes? I said yes. He asked if I ever found anything good. I told him I'd found a silver dime earlier and was hoping there would be more. He said he didn't see a problem with what I was doing but to please be extra careful. he laughed about how his groundskeeper had wanted him to contact the police about my presence and activities a few weekends earlier. Clearly he thought his groundkeeper was going a little voerboard. I thanked him very much and went about my business. I've hunted that school several times since but I try to go very early on holiday weekends or other times that I would not expect any groundskeepers or staff to be around.

[CBnKansas]

Beefcake is right on. This type of person wants people to suck up to him so he can feel powerful. If you can take sucking up a little and win him over, he will be your biggest defender once you are his subject, because you represent his powerfullness. If the place is worth that to you, then let him at least think he is a Lead Dog.

cb

[deltacornbread]

Simular story here. Had permission from County Judge to hunt local fairgrounds. Fairgrounds are inactive, no fair in several years.
Local municipal employee has been sort of the unofficial overseer of place and he did not like me hunting there. I filled in my holes, etc. plus weed-eated the knee high weeds. Was planning on mowing the place this summer. Anyway, I have been locked
out of the place. And all because of one person who thinks he owns the place. Defintely was PO'd over it. County Judge is a friend and I could have gone to him. However, I chose to let things cool off a bit. If I had gone to judge complaining, municipal guy would simply get his buds on police department to harrass me whenever they had opportunity. So I am simply waiting.